Episode 105: Keyword mapping with Sophie Brannon

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What's in this episode?

In this episode, you will hear Mark Williams-Cook joined by Sophie Brannon from Absolute Digital Media to discuss content mapping, including:

  • What is content mapping and why is it important?

  • What are the common mistakes made with content mapping and keyword research?

  • What tools are agencies using for keyword research and content mapping?

  • Has AI changed and will it change these processes?


MC: Welcome to episode 105 of the Search With Candour podcast, recorded on Thursday, the 1st of April, 2021. My name is Mark Williams-Cook. Today we're going to be joined by Sophie Brannon, who is senior SEO manager at Absolute Digital Media, to talk about keyword research and content mapping.

Before we get going, this episode is sponsored by Sitebulb. Sitebulb, if you haven't heard of it, is a desktop-based SEO auditing tool for Windows and Mac, and is an absolutely brilliant bit of software. I've been using it personally for years, as we have inside Candour agency. So it's really cool, they decided to sponsor the podcast because it's something I can talk about really easily.

Actually, we delivered some training last week around status codes, HTTP status codes, and got into depth about soft 404s. So those pages that are returning 200, everything is fine codes, but actually, they're showing the user that the page isn't found. One of the interesting things I find about Sitebulb, apart from all of the usual checks that auditing software does around crawling the site, it actually has its own little separate checks it does. So we've spoken about ones before, about checking if you're on CloudFlare, for instance, which can affect your crawl, but it even does stuff like testing for soft 404s. So they will make up their own random page URL, which they know unless they're incredibly unlucky, won't exist on the site. And they're checking that the HTTP code they get back is a 404, and it's not coming back as a 200.

So Sitebulb is a really great bit of kit to not just look at your usual audit checks, but it does all these other spot checks, which can highlight things that otherwise can slip through, unless you're specifically, manually looking for them. To listeners of Search With Candour, they have a special offer. If you go to, you can get an extended 60-day trial. No credit card, payment upfront, anything like that.

As I said, today we are joined by Sophie Brannon, who is the senior SEO manager at Absolute Digital Media, Brighton SEO, 2021 speaker. And according to your LinkedIn profile, currently learning Python. Welcome, Sophie. Thank you for joining me.

SB: Thank you so much for having me. It's really great to be here.

MC: Do you want to just give us a quick introduction to yourself, for the people that don't you, and maybe tell us what you're talking about at Brighton SEO? And now you're on this train with a lot of SEOs, I think learning Python?

SB: Yeah, definitely. As you said, I am the senior SEO manager at Absolute Digital Media, and I've been in the industry for just over five years. I started in content, my background in journalism, moved into copywriting, across to SEO account management. And now I look after all of the account managers and all of the client accounts, just overseeing strategies and things like that.

Spoke this year at Crawlera and Brighton SEO. The first I've ever done speaking events, so it was really fun and really scary at the same time, on topics like passage indexing at Crawlera. And at Brighton last week was about positioning yourself as an expert in order to get buy-in. So those technical recommendations, fighting the dev teams, the clients, and making sure that your recommendations do actually get implemented.

The Python thing is a really new venture for me, so I'm about 5% into my Udemy course at the moment. But it's something everyone's talking about, so I really wanted to jump on the bandwagon, really start learning and improve my own technical SEO knowledge as well. And being able to implement a lot of that stuff, I think is really fun. So it's a new journey, new venture.

MC: It's really interesting. We spoke to Billy Geena last week on the podcast, who I think had a similar background to you in terms of, she started in content. And now Billy was talking about how she's looking a lot more into technical and automation. So from the two things you said there before we move on to our subject, which is going to be around keyword research and content mapping, have you got any advice for people who are thinking about making that leap from a content, non-technical world to looking at more technical stuff? Because as well, you mentioned talking to dev teams there. So surely you've got to have some technical grounding to be able to do that. Is that right?

SB: Definitely. I think the biggest thing for me and how I really learned about it all, was just jumping into the deep end, to be honest. Just going, "Right, immerse myself in all of the resources, talk to devs, get an understanding of the language that they're using." Not even necessarily the really technical stuff, but more of the why they're doing things, and explain to them why you want to do things as well, and being able to work together. So just don't be afraid, I think that is my biggest tip for it. And just really jump in the deep end. There's such a great community in the SEO world and the tech world. You've got things like women in tech SEO community for all the lovely ladies in SEO, and women who code. And just generally everyone is so supportive on things like Twitter and LinkedIn. So get involved in the communities, just jump in the deep end and just start learning.

MC: I think that's really good advice on the why thing. When we do technical SEO training, one of the things that I always try and get across to people is that, like you said, as an SEO, I think it's your place to know what needs doing, and it's important to know why it needs doing so you can explain it to a developer. And actually, I think a lot of the time you don't need to go into the how, because then you're in dangerous territory of almost telling someone how to do their job, like, "We need to do this and this is why. Can you tell me how to do it?" Have you had anyone mentor you then, in terms of tech requests? Have you got someone that's helped you along with that, internally maybe, or on Twitter, or has it just been the community as a whole?

SB: Yeah, I think the community as a whole. I'm in a really lucky position because I've always been agency side, so I've always had great support from the dev team at Absolute, the SEO team at Absolute, PPC guys too, they're always brilliant at things like tracking and stuff like that. So generally working agency side has been really helpful. But a lot of it as well has been off the back of my own research and just reaching out to people, watching people's webinars, their talks at all of these conferences, and just having a chat really.

MC: Nice. And lastly, while we're on conferences, before we go onto our subject, have you got any advice? You said these were the first public talks you did. So any advice for people thinking about doing that? What's one thing you would say to someone who wants to venture into that?

SB: It's scary, but you have to own it, which is the biggest thing. Fortunately for me, so far, Crawlera and Brighton SEO were both prerecorded. So you did have that opportunity to really prep for it if you wanted to. I'm personally the type of person who just goes, "I'm just going to record it. Okay. The audio sounds good. Send and never watch it again." But just prepping a little bit more and, again, just getting advice and support, and get people to give you feedback on your talks as well, whether that's the content of the presentation or even the whole recording, doing run-throughs and stuff is really helpful. Just go for it.

Kirsty Host is someone we work really quite closely with and someone I've been working quite closely with, over the last few months in particular, particularly in the buildup to things like Brighton SEO. And one of the things she said to me, which really resonated, was all about, when you're doing a talk or you're doing a training session, there's always going to be someone who knows more than you. And there's always going to be someone who knows less than you. So don't be afraid of it and just really go for it.

MC: It's a nice way to think about it.

SB: It really helps.

MC: I think Brighton SEO do offer some support as well, to first-time speakers. I don't know that's something you took them up on, but I'm pretty sure I saw them tweeting about that. But that's good advice, do jump in. I think Kirsty runs, is it raw training?

SB: Yeah.

MC: Off the top of my head. Yeah. So Kirsty Hos, I was actually one of my, I haven't seen her speak in a while, but one of my favourite speakers. I've seen her talk quite a few times. So if you are looking for confidence training, if you like, I think she's a good person to look up to.

SB: Definitely.

MC: Let's get onto our subjects. We want to talk about keyword research and content mapping. I think just a logical place to start is, do you want to give us an overview of what we mean when we're talking about this? Because keyword research is a term, obviously it's been chucked around since the beginning of time, in terms of SEO and PPC. So specifically, what is this process?

SB: Cool. I'll explain first about keyword mapping, because for me, every strategy I do, starts with a keyword map. So for me, a keyword map is a framework that can be used to effectively assign sets of keywords to a particular URL, which follows your site structure based on keyword research. So I find that keyword map's a really great tool because it will pull together everything and it really showcases transparency. It showcases your priorities. And most importantly, it helps to really identify and avoid potential content duplication issues or cannibalisation. And then with the keyword research side of it, it's just the process. As you say, since the beginning of time, SEOs follow to find search terms that people are entering into search engines and using this spin format strategy.

MC: I think that's something that I've encountered quite a lot over the years, which is without that plan in place or without forethought of SEO. When we look at content clients have done, there is this issue of cannibaliSation, which, to frame, is basically where you've got several pages, right? They're pretty much targeting the same keywords or set of keywords. And you're leaving search engines in a weird position where they're like, "I don't know which one you want me to rank," right?

So in terms of keyword research, the thing I've had a few interesting conversations about recently is search volume. We published also, our tool a couple of years ago now, and that focuses on these really long tail questions. If you run them through any search volume tool, they always come up as zero. And I've had people saying, "Can we integrate search volume in it?" And I'd be like, "No." So what are your thoughts around how important search volume is in keyword mapping, keyword research, and where that sits? And is it the be all and end all?

SB: I wouldn't say it's the be-all and end-all. I think it depends very much so on the clients that you're dealing with because a lot of clients are very focused on the old school, I want to rank position one for this particular keyword, and we know that's not what SEO is all about anymore. So search volume is a really good indication, and you can do a lot of forecasting of SEO based on click-through rate and search volumes, and things like that. But it's also looking more at the intent of the user for me. It's looking at, okay, you've got all of that volume of traffic for a really short tail keyword, but are they really coming to the website with the intent to actually purchase something or to convert via filling out a form?

It's really the more long-tail customers and users that are going to do that because they're much further down the conversion path. So I'm all for looking at the high search volume terms, but the most valuable terms that I've found with any SEO strategy and with the keyword mapping process has been the longer tails, and almost the lower search volume terms as well.

MC: I think this links into, for quite a few years now, Google has been using this phrase, things, not strings. And literally, I mean overtime, I think it was 10 years ago, I first heard that when they were introducing their knowledge graph. We've talked about this on the podcast a few times and talked about how this is referring to Google's approach now of trying to use entities, and understand what things are, and relationships between things, rather than trying to match an exact keyword phrase. And I think just as a user, as an observant user of Google, at least that's something I've seen in search results, which is that I don't necessarily see the exact thing I typed in for as much as I used to, in titles and such. So do you think this is meant that the actual practice then, of keyword research has changed over time? Or is it mostly the same as it has been?

SB: I think the whole concept of entities is really interesting, and we can see, like you say, actually in Google search results, when we're personally searching for staff, how Google has evolved over time to get that better grasp of synonyms, and how users are searching. And it's all obviously through their natural language processing, part of the algorithm. So I don't think it's necessarily changed the keyword research process, but it's more changed what keywords people should be targeting within their strategies, based on their intent. So I think the knowledge graph was introduced in, I want to say 2012 or something. It was around there.

MC: Sounds about right.

SB: And that's where the whole concept came from. It's the knowledge graph that's really changed how things are displayed in search results. I think Rand Fishkin did a really great talk on this a few years back at Brighton SEO, and he typed in Brighton. And you can just have all the little panels up there. Organic searches are so far down, and it's led to this whole process and this whole evolution of zero-click searches to people seeing these featured snippets, seeing the knowledge graph, seeing all of these panels and things like that.

It's definitely changed how we have to do SEO and the opportunities, and the click-throughs that we're getting from the channel as such. But it's more about the keywords that you're choosing. And again, going back to the long tail stuff, are you more likely to get actual converting traffic off of long-tail keywords than you are the short tails because of this evolution of the things, not strings? So it's definitely more based, I think, on search intent.

MC: Let's talk a bit more about zero click because that's the hot potato at the minute. So if you're doing some keyword research and keyword mapping, and you found some search terms you think you like, when you actually look at them in Google, you're seeing maybe, yeah, you're getting, I don't know, a featured snippet that tells us the answer, a knowledge graph, a people also ask. A lot of that is zero click, if you like, territory. Is that something you would then de-prioritize as a keyword? Or is that something you lean into and say, "Well, we want to try and be there, even though we're not going to necessarily get a click?" What are your thoughts?

SB I love a featured snippet. They're my favourite things. For me, SEO isn't just about getting the clicks through. It's also a brand visibility thing, and this is why it ties so nicely into things at digital PR as well and looking at integrated marketing. So using both SEO and PPC to really capitalise on getting those clicks. But if you're really visible and Google is really rewarding you because your content is great, and the site's really well, technically sound, things like that, getting those featured snippets is only going to benefit you.

We've seen and we've run some tests on our side as well, that you do still get clicks for a featured snippet. So you shouldn't just de-prioritise it because there is still opportunity there, but it's also just showcasing the website and going, "We've got all the information you need." The chances are, with a featured snippet, okay, people are finding sometimes what they're looking for within that little snippet of text there. But other times they're going to need to find out a bit more information, and that's when you're going to get those clicks.

MC: As you said as well, I think you're putting stuff in your brand equity pot in terms of people are seeing you. And then you might have more people maybe good at Googling your brand, and just becoming a bit better known. And again, I've seen lots of people say interesting things as well about when it comes to Google, trying to understand organisations and brands. That's all tied in with this expertise authority and trust around content. So generally, click or not, it's a good thing. It's a good sign, you're saying if you're showing up in these results.

SB: Yeah, I definitely think so. And you can use it to your own advantage as well. I think SparkToro, with Rand, did this really great, a bunch of research around it. And you can get yourself in those panels, you can use structured mark up to make sure your snippets are all right and things like that. But generally, yeah, why wouldn't you want to show up at the top of Google with a featured snippet? Whether you're going to get those clicks or not, it's still great for brand visibility. Not everyone will agree with me. I've worked with clients who've gone, "You know what? No, we're not interested in that. We want clicks. We want conversions." But for me, if you can build it all up, build up that visibility, get all of that search visibility there, then you're laughing.

MC: That's an interesting maybe side topic there. What are your thoughts or what do you do if you've got a strategy, say where you think, okay, I think long-term is beneficial to be visible because maybe you think, and I think this is a fair thought. I'll put it out there without any evidence that if you are being seen more for these types of queries in featured snippets, in the knowledge graph, Google's understanding what you do, what the services or products are, I think maybe you've got a better chance overall ranking. And then a client says to you, "No, we're not interested in that. We just want clicks." And that's maybe, you think, going against what you think is good for the long-term. How do you approach that with them?

SB: This is what my Brighton SEO talk was all about. It's about getting that buy-in from clients, to really get your own way almost to a degree. You have to showcase value more than anything. What is your strategy actually going to do for them? Is it going to get the most clicks? Is it going to help them to achieve their overall objective and their overall goals, and really drive ROI for their business? Because that's what they're after. They can pay a set fee per month, or it could be on contract, or however the business operates. If they're not making that money back and more at the end of the day, then for them, it's not going to be beneficial.

So it's really about showcasing the data behind it, but not overwhelming them as well, by going, "Here's all these numbers. This is why you should do it." It needs to be explained in a really nice way, to go, "This is why we should do it and this is the value you're going to get out of it as well."

MC: We were having a conversation yesterday about this actually, on another podcast about clients. I think similar to the developer thing, which is if you're hiring an SEO for their specialism, sometimes it's good to tell them what you need, but not tell them how to do it, and just trust in them in that way. So that's my non-bias view for maybe people that are working with agencies, which is if you're paying them and you want them to take responsibility, and have accountability for what they're producing for you, go with their recommendation maybe.

SB: Yeah, for sure. But at the same time, for us at Absolute, in particular, we really like to work transparently, but in partnership with our clients. So we'll never just turn around and be like, "You know what? You can't do that, or you can't tell us what to do because we're the experts." We want to make sure that we're doing it in line with what they want to achieve as well.

MC: They are the client at the end of the day. Cool. What are some of the tools you'd recommend? So if we're starting out on a keyword research mapping, content mapping project, what's the process you go through? Is there a different set of tools you use, or the same ones in a process? What does that look like?

SB: I think there are three different stages to pull in, to gather keyword research and a content mapping file as well. First of all, you need to use a crawling tool. My personal favourite is Screaming Frog, but I know loads of people use things like DeepCrawl and OnCrawl, things like that because you need that full list of URLs. It's all well and good, going through the website, picking out the ones from the navigation or the ones that might be in your site map. But what about all those really in-depth, long-form blog articles that have been written 10 years ago, that are just buried really deep? You're going to need to pull those out as well to make sure you are avoiding that content duplication issue when you're putting together the keyword map. So some sort of crawling tool is always my first step.

Then moving onto the actual keyword research process. I love SEMrush. I love Ahrefs and Google Keyword Planner. I always use just cross-reference things as well. And then some of the more long-tail tools, like Ask The Public and things like that, just getting a really good idea and full understanding of what people are searching for. And then using that to then map towards those URLs that you've just crawled out. And then for me, the most manual process of this, but possibly the most important part, is just checking it in Google search results, because you can turn around and say, "I want this keyword to be ranking on this particular URL." If you already positioned one, two, three, or page one with a different URL, then are you really going to want to jeopardize that traffic that's potentially already coming through? So just regularly checking it, using just Google search results as well, is really important.

MC: I really like that actually, the checking what Google likes already. I've had that before where we've seen a client that's been ranking for one of their core key phrases, which should've been a category level search. And as it happened, their product was ranking one of their products, but it was the main product if you like. It was really interesting to talk to them about because when we spoke to them about that category, they were like, "Well, yeah, this one product is 80% of the sales." And the discussion was, Google almost works that out. When people search for this category, it's normally that thing they buy. So they've jumped the queue there. And the strategy we ended up doing was just doubling down on that, essentially, and saying, "Well, I think we're going to have a hard time trying to reverse back uphill with this and tell Google not to rank that page, rank the category page." And there's obviously risk if we try and do redirects or canonical tags.

So we just doubled down and actually changed a lot of the nav links to that main product, it worked really well. So I think that's a really great bit of advice you've uncovered there for people. Something you touched on very quickly there, you mentioned old blog posts. I just wanted to get your opinion here because I've seen lots of people saying recently, and I've actually seen anecdotally, at least this just appear in a vacuum, which is just around updating and refreshing that really old stuff. Now I think this is maybe marred in to, if you re-date stuff, it jumps to the top of the link structure again. So it's more of an important page. But do you think updating old blog posts is, one, important? Relevant? And two, does it directly impact rankings?

SB: I think it depends on the purpose. Again, the why you're doing it. For me, refreshing content is always really beneficial because search intent will always change. Even if it's an evergreen piece of content or what's deemed to be evergreen, you're going to need to refresh it just to make sure that you have got the most accurate and up to date information there. That's going back to Google's guidelines with the whole expertise, authority, trustworthiness side of it. Keeping it fresh, keeping it up to date is really important. I think it can impact rankings to a degree because, again, really looking at the keyword optimisation of that page, keeping it fresh, daring to it is all really important stuff.

In terms of the importance of it and doing it as a regular exercise, it depends on what you're trying to achieve out of it. If you're trying to drive more informational users to your website, and you're trying to boost your brand visibility in doing it that way, then great. I think that's a really good strategy. If you're more interested in having people visiting the website to buy a product or to land on your contact page, for example, get to your contact page and convert that way, then maybe that's not the best way to do it. I think it's very much to do with who your customers are, how far or how long they may need to be nurtured for. And then that will really tell you the value of whether re-optimising blog posts and refreshing them is actually worth it.

MC: Is this process of, in your opinion, content mapping, keyword research, is it a one-off thing you set out at the beginning? Or do you revisit it for specific pages, products, categories? Because I assume over time, in some industries, the actual words people use are different, or new words come into play. Is that something you scheduled to look at or is it on an ad hoc basis?

SB: I find the keyword mapping file to be a constant evolution. It's one of the first things I do when a new client comes on board, along with the technical audits and things like that, because it just gives you a real clear, structured plan of what you're going to be doing moving forward and why and all of that transparency. But ultimately, it's one of those things where it does need to be a constant evolution, but maybe not a structured one. So it doesn't need to be scheduled in for every quarterly basis, every six months, every year. It needs to be more of an ad hoc thing based on looking at Google trends and looking at how consumers are searching, looking at Google's algorithm updates, has the knowledge graph made more of an impact or less of an impact on certain times? Are people talking about things in a different way? Has there been something really newsworthy? There are all of these different tick boxes you have to go through, but it's more of an ad hoc basis.

MC: That's really interesting. I've seen it happen in some industries where, literally, the main key term has totally changed. The first one I saw that happened most noticeably was with vaping type businesses. So they just used to be called e-cigarettes that nobody had ever used that term. I saw all these affiliate stores and e-commerce sites pop up, and they were buying all these e-cigarette, electric cigarette like domains. And then I guess just because of media and common usage, now nobody calls them e-cigarettes anymore. They talk about vaping. Right?

That was really interesting because it's basically the same product, and it just 180'ed. So that's interesting. What would you say are the most common mistakes you see with clients in terms of if it's keyword research or mapping process. If they say, "Yeah, we've done our keyword research," and then you look at it and you're like, "Oh, no." What do you regularly see?

SB: It's that whole concept of not taking search intent into account, not looking at things like what is already ranking, and not looking at knowledge graphs, and potentially, are they even going to rank that keyword? Is it too competitive? Is it something that they're not actually really going to want to rank for? Because they're going to get actually really low-quality traffic. So definitely, the most common mistake is just completely ignoring search intent, to be honest.

MC: I was having a conversation just yesterday, with a potential client, where they have a premium product in, I guess, a product search category that's normally quite a common, like a throw away almost product. They were talking about how well they were ranking already, and how maybe we can get to number one, two and three. When I looked at those search results, when I was on the call with them, I was saying to them, "Well, look, I think, while this is a big search term and you are already ranking quite well ..." and their conversion is quite high, "... that it's probably the case that most of the searches actually want the cheap one, because that's the common mass thing." So like you said, I said to him, "It might not even be possible for you to rank number one because people don't want your product, generally. They want the other one."

The reason their conversion rate was so high, even though they weren't ranking well, was an effect of the people that saw the cheap stuff ranking well, didn't want it. So they've kept going down the SERP until they found the product that they wanted. So even though they're in the minority, they convert well, which is a really confusing picture. If you just look at the numbers, you're like, "Oh, we've got X percent conversion at number 10. Therefore, if we're number one, we're going to make a billion pounds." So again, a really good tip for being honest with yourself, and do you deserve to rank? And are you the right product or service to rank for that?

I'm going to throw it in there because it comes up in every conversation about, well, anything tech nowadays, which is AI. Have you seen any impact on artificial intelligence in any of ... You can interpret that and take it as any way you like, including tools that do use AI or claim they do. Is that something you see becoming important? Because we know Google is using various bits of AI in the background, around intent and things like that. Do you think it's something that is impacting or will impact this process?

SB: Definitely, in terms of what keywords you should be targeting, because using the natural language processing and the intent side of it, that's going to change really what you should be trying to rank for, or what you even want to be visible for, and how you can be as well. In terms of the actual process itself and doing it, I know a lot of people, and I've been speaking to a lot of people recently about using a lot more automation in their keyword research process, in terms of how they're extracting the data from the tools and how they're almost trying to map it as well. I think Python is a really big part of that. But for me, and I don't know if this is just because I'm very particular about these things, but it should never take away from the manual process of it. So just doing those checks and just constantly being on top of how Google and their own AI, and what they're doing with their own machine learning is impacting what you're trying to achieve as well.

MC: We've certainly started to experiment with a few tools. is one that uses GPT-3 to try and do things. It can try and write, add headlines and add text. It's hit and miss, so sometimes it'll come up with something that's actually really great. A lot of the time it will be okay, and sometimes it's just complete madness. It's nothing relevant. But we found it useful, at least just for inspiration because there is a benefit I always think, with teams. And this is maybe where in-house sometimes suffers, of just getting other people's point of view on stuff and getting their input, and getting you out of your own thought bubble. So I found from our point of view, we've found a few bits of AI that are good at just maybe broadening horizons and making us think differently. But totally agree. I don't think it's anywhere near the stage where we can just rely on it or lean into it yet.

SB: Yeah, definitely not yet. I don't know if it ever will be as well, because I think it's always going to need that human element of it. Maybe I'm being cynical. I don't know. Even with all my Python training and stuff, I'm doing at the moment, I really do love a manual process. So it's important, and automating things can be a real time-saver. And as you say, it can act as an inspiration and get you out of your little bubble. But I think for now, at least, you're going to need to keep checking and stuff.

MC: So to end on, because we're just over half an hour now, do you have any tips you'd like to finish on? Not necessarily mistakes, but opportunities you commonly see missed that you'd like to share and get people maybe who are starting out doing this, or business owners that are talking SEOs. What should they be looking out for?

SB: I know I've said this numerous times on this podcast today, but just don't forget the search intent side of it. Doing those chats, seeing what's ranking, can you rank for it? Why do you want to rank for it? Are you going to attract the right traffic to it as well? Definitely, don't forget that. That's a key opportunity for any keyword mapping file. Again, a bit more of a manual process, but one that's really valuable.

And as well as that, I think trying to take into account the rich results side of things. So looking at those FAQ opportunities or how to use some of that structured markup, and capitalising on that within the content that you're writing to. It can be mapped out as part of the keyword research and keyword mapping file process, or it can just be there as a little note, just to be like, "Okay, let's make sure we do this and it actually gets to the production stage as well." So that's another thing. As an opportunity, and as the whole structured markup and schema continue to grow and evolve, there's always going to be new opportunities there to take advantage of as well.

MC: Sophie, thank you so much for your time and sharing your knowledge with me. I really appreciate it.

SB: Thank you so much for having me. It's been so much fun.

MC: We are going to be back in one week's time, after the Bank Holiday. By the time you listen to this, it will be the Bank Holiday. So we'll be back next Monday, which will be the 12th of April. I hope you've enjoyed the podcast. Do subscribe, tell a friend, all that nice stuff, if you aren't enjoying it. Otherwise, I hope you have a great week.

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