Google indexing speed, syndicated content and TrendWatch

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Show notes

This week, Jack Chambers-Ward is joined once again by Mark Williams-Cook to discuss:


Jack: Coming up on this week's SISTRIX With Candour live stream, hello, by the way, we are here, we are going to be talking about TrendWatch April 2023, Google indexing speed key factors including quality and popularity, and Google no longer recommending canonical tags for syndicated content. Hello, I am Jack Chambers-Ward. I am your host for this month's SITRIX With Candour. I'm joined by the inimitable Mark Williams. Hello, Mark.

Mark: Hello, everyone. Glad to be here.

Jack: Yes, thank you SISTRIX for having us back on your YouTube channel. We love doing these live streams. Hopefully, you're enjoying our new little layouts and stuff. There'll be a few new little tech things going on and yeah, a few new little additional extras and things we'll be doing from a tech perspective. Hopefully, you can see us okay. Hopefully, you can hear us okay. All that kind of stuff. Yeah, thank you SISTRIX for having us on YouTube. If you are joining us live, please do join in the chat. We'll be opening that throughout the live stream and we'll also be taking questions at the end of the show as well. We'll be leaving the chat open for Hangouts, more questions, all that kind of stuff. We'll be in there and the SISTRIX team will be in there to answer any questions you have even after we stop recording, for about sort of half an hour or so after we stop recording. So should we dive into some updates from SISTRIX, Mark? I'm very excited to talk about some TrendWatch because we love a TrendWatch here on the show.

Mark: It makes me really nervous.

Jack: When I'm excited, you should be nervous, I feel like is the dynamic here.

Mark: TrendWatch, we're always covering things that are kind of popular in pop culture and I never get to look at them first.

Jack: You could have done, to be fair, you can.

Mark: It takes the fun out of it.

Jack: It did. That is true. That is true.

Mark: But I kind of get exposed for my lack of cultural awareness.

SISTRIX's TrendWatch April 2023

Jack: Well, let's have a look at our first TrendWatch, shall we? Probably something you've heard of probably there out there in listener land and viewer land you have seen and heard around the place. We're going to talk about some tote bags. Do you know what a tote bag is, mark?

Mark: I do.

Jack: Okay. Thank God for that.

Mark: Can turn my mic up all the way?

Jack: Yeah.

Mark: I said I'm a bit quiet.

Jack: You're a bit quiet. I will turn the mic up.

Mark: Crank me up.

Jack: Mark up a bit. Can you hear Mark okay?

Mark: Hopefully, that's a little bit better for everyone. Thank you for the feedback, Chris.

Jack: Thank you for feedback.

Mark: I'll try and speak up.

Jack: Mark is a little bit quieter on the mic so we'll get him up a little bit. Hopefully that's a bit better.

Mark: So yes, I do know what a tote bag is.

Jack: Okay, good.

Mark: This is one that doesn't actually surprise me too much because we actually have a client that does branded merchandise. We've worked with them with SEO and one of the things I've noticed is they are selling a lot of tote bags. Now I tried to grab all of the credit for that in terms of improved rankings, but I have noticed, yes, there has been an increase in search volume as well.

Jack: I think it's a big thing. I notice there's a lot going to BrightonSEO a couple of weeks ago where it was just tote bags as far as the eye can see. Like you said, as soon as anything's branded, tote bags seems to be kind of a go-to thing for a lot of brands because you're going to need bags. There's plastic bag prices and extra costs now from supermarkets and things like that. So going towards the sustainable route, I think, makes a lot of sense.

Me and my wife have a bag of bags in our cupboard that is two dozen tote bags all wrapped in one larger bag, and yeah, they're our go-to kind of shopping bags. Reusable stuff, whether that's some of the branded stuff we get from BrightonSEO or specific stuff, we've even picked up independent artists locally make little tote bags and stuff with cool artwork on.

But I'm guessing it is kind of the sustainability angle here that is going to be the driving factor to this increase, right? Because this is a pretty steep increase. I Kind of expect it over the last sort of decade or so. I feel like we've been talking about tote bags for a while. I would've assumed it would've been a slower, but seems pretty steep, especially towards the beginning of sort of 2023.

Mark: As I said, I've got a bit of insight into this. This doesn't surprise me so much. So when we onboarded this client that did a lot of this branded merchandise, they were saying a lot of the queries they were getting now were about sustainability and people being mindful. They didn't want to have essentially stuff with their brand on it that just ends up in a landfill because no one wants it.

Jack: Right, right.

Mark: I think tote bags being reusable, they're cheap is the other thing to produce, and obviously they're very visible, so they don't just get tucked away. So I think yes, it's super popular.

Jack: It's free advertising in places like supermarkets where there's loads of footfall, there's loads of people. You've even got designers jumping in on this. So like Louis Vuitton and Mark Jacobs are doing designer tote bags and stuff like that. I haven't seen those, but there is a link in the SISTRIX TrendWatch for April 2023 if you want to go and check out some designer tote bags because, oh yeah, that's a whole thing. I can't imagine paying 50 pounds for a tote bag.

Mark: Azeem asks the serious question: tote or jute bag?

Jack: Ooh jute is kind of the wicker-y one.

Mark: I had to Google it to be sure, but yeah, it's that kind of thing.

Jack: I am thoroughly a tote bag kind of guy.

Mark: I think I'm tote.

Jack: Oh, okay. Listeners and viewers out there let us know, what do you think?

Mark: We're totes tote. We're totes totes over here at Candour.

Jack: Have we ever had Candour totes? Is that a thing?

Mark: We haven't, no.

Jack: Maybe we'll get some also asked totes down the way. SISTIRX, if you've got some totes, let us know. We can hold up some totes for you on the live stream. But yes, we'll be sticking with totes rather than jutes, although it seems like the live chat is kind of split between totes and jutes. Next up we'll continue the kind of fashion and talk about Vinted Is Vinted something you've heard of Mark?

Mark: Vinted is something I've heard of. Again, this is becoming a recurring theme thanks to my lovely wife who has been selling some things, I believe, and most likely buying some things as well. I've heard that name mentioned around the house.

Jack: Yeah, same for my wife. Our Director of Strategy here at Candour, Jessica, actually originally introduced my wife to Vinted and we have now been selling loads of old clothes and stuff. It kind of seems like a sort of fashion focused eBay in a way where you're kind of like it's bidding, and auction based, and all that kind of stuff. There's a lot of kind of drop off sections, so you'd have to do your own posting. There's a whole system where they have collection points and all that kind of stuff, which is quite useful. They're often scattered around supermarkets, and major metropolitan areas, and all that kind of stuff. I think it's interesting that this is again, kind of coming around to tying into fashion, like I said with the tote bags. But again, from a sustainability point of view, this is a theme we keep seeing in TrendWatch pretty regularly.

Recently when Steve did analysis on the visibility leaders for travel industry, which I mentioned in last week's podcast, if you listen to that, that was a lot talking about sustainability, sustainable travel, all that kind of stuff. People being more kind of eco minded in their travel and everyday life. I think this is evidence, again, of trying to essentially recycle things. You don't just want all your old stuff, as you said, Mark, to end up in a landfill or something like that. If it can go to a good home and it's still in a good condition, then why not pass it on, right?

Mark: Yeah. To me though, this graph, as well, shows I think how well they've done with their marketing and how much I've heard about them. Because there's already solutions, like you kind of said, on eBay. eBay could do those things, but they've really, that's the definition of good marketing. They've got their audience, their message they want, and a specific thing they're doing. They've sort of taken that multi-pronged attack to getting people to use them. Now I hear their brand around a lot.

Jack: Specifically what Nicole dives into in TrendWatch here is looking at the ad spend from Vinted and how much they've ramped that up over the last three years. So it's increased by over 300% since 2020, now north of 50 to a hundred million euros a year in 2022.

Mark: You can see that, right?

Jack: Exactly. Yeah, it's a pretty direct result right there. I think that's a thing I often take for granted in trend stuff, we so often see TikTok trends being influenced or a kind of wider conversation of things of like, oh yeah, there's sustainability and all that kind of stuff. But just good old-fashioned marketing, ad spend, all that kind of stuff can be such a driving factor in growing visibility and things like that. I think that's something, like I said, I often forget to take away from some of the TrendWatch data and just kind of try not to think about it at face value, essentially. This data can be really, really handy to understand what brands are doing. Go and have a look at what Vinted are doing in terms of their marketing. Where are they doing their ads? What kind of ads are they doing? Is it mostly, I've seen some YouTube ads for Vinted, for example. I've seen it all over other shopping sites, and partnerships with payment systems like Klarna, and all that kind of stuff. There's a lot of stuff going on there when you really dig down the data and think about it.

I think Nicole's done a brilliant example here of yeah, they've massively increased their ad spend, their marketing has shot up, and surprisingly to no one, it has gone up for visibility as well. So yeah, I think really, really cool interesting thing. Yeah, something introduced to us by both of our wives. Again, as seems to be the case in a lot of these TrendWatches. The third and final TrendWatch, I'm only going to give you three of the 10. You'll have to go and subscribe to the newsletter at If you do want to get all 10 newsletter trends delivered straight to your inbox. I'll go to my third, perhaps my favorite of the three because Mark has no clue what is going on. Let's talk about Whopper Whopper, Whopper Whopper, AKA, the Whopper Whopper song. Any clues what could be going on here Mark?

Mark: Yes.

Jack: Okay, good. Would you like to elaborate?

Mark: No. If you have follow-up questions, the answer is no. No, I have no idea. Whopper, to me, I guess only means burgers.

Jack: You are correct.

Mark: Yes.

Jack: It's a Burger King ad. Speaking of ads, tying that and transitioning and segueing from Vinted pushing their marketing campaigns and ad spend and all that kind of stuff. Burger King have basically had a viral hit of a commercial, which is a bit of a weird thing. You know, get those occasional, I always, always point to the Cadbury's Gorilla as the classic ... In the Air Tonight, the gorilla doing the drumming and stuff. That's as an all time classic. There's all loads of ones that kind of happened in my childhood in the '90s and stuff. But this is one that has really kind of blown up and I think it's kind of because it sounds like a kid song. It is literally a guy singing Whopper Whopper Whopper, Junior Triple Double Whopper. It's not exciting. I was first introduced to this through Daft Punk remix, Harder, Better, Faster, Whopper.

Mark: Okay.

Jack: Which essentially, so I'll find the lyrics for the Whopper song here because it's fantastic. It works to the tune of the Harder, Better, Faster song. So it's: Whopper Whopper, Whopper Whopper Junior Double Triple Whopper Flame grilled taste with perfect toppers Lettuce, mayo, pickle, ketchup.

Mark: I did not expect to hear you do that on the live stream.

Jack: You're welcome, slash, I'm sorry. Yeah, that is a thing that I was introduced. I think it was a TikTok thing I saw that in and yeah, it was a whole kind of trend that was going on. I often get introduced to things through remixes, not the original version. I don't think I'm particularly the target audience for this kind of thing.

Mark: Where was it at? Was that like a TV ad?

Jack: Yeah, it's TV ad, it's YouTube, it's TikTok, it's been all over the place. It's been Burger King's like big push for this kind of stuff. So I think it's interesting that you can get a viral kind of thing for a really kind of corporate sleazy thing of burgers, and Burger King, and stuff. But yeah, the original for those of you, is available on Spotify. I do not endorse Burger King or anything like that, but it is interesting to hear. It basically it has kind of Baby Shark vibes to me. Similar kind of kids song kind of vibes. I am not always happy about, to be honest. That's not my vibe, being a 32-year-old man with no children, kids songs are not my vibe. Shall we move on and talk about the topics for this week and dive into some Google updates and data?

Google indexing speed: Key factors

Mark: So the first topic is Google indexing speed. We came across this on a search engine journal article written by Matt Southern, and this was some information shared by Google, kindly by Gary Illyes. I miss you, Gary, on Twitter, by the way. Please come back. I think this is going to be problematic is my take on this. So the summary is, this came from some questions about getting a 16,000-page site indexed and there was a webmaster that was expressing some concern about how slowly the pages were being indexed. So Gary very kindly gave some pointers to the important kind of factors in terms of Google and indexing speed. To summarise this article, they were saying the indexing speed depends on website quality, website popularity, and what was also mentioned was social media popularity can boost site visibility and indexing speed.

Jack: That's worrying that people are going to talking about like, oh I'm big on social media, I can get indexed.

Mark: Yeah. So the first thing I think to bear in mind before we dive into this is do keep in mind that crawling is different from indexing, and indexing is different from ranking, and, of course, ranking is the key to visibility.

So if we break this down, website quality, to kind of dive into this a bit deeper, they actually linked to a quote from John Mueller from October 2021 who said, this is, quote, "When it comes to the quality of content, we don't just mean the text of your articles. It's really the quality of your overall website. That includes everything from the layout to the design, how you've presented on your pages, how you integrate images, how you work on speed, all those factors kind of come into here."

We know there are some Google algorithms that work on kind of a site wide basis. That, to me, is not particularly helpful. We know we haven't got any specifics really on what part of those actually have what kind of impact. When we talk about popularity, to me, whenever I see site popularity, that, to me, just means links. That's kind of Google's code word for how do we measure how popular you are on the internet? Well, we have this whole link algorithm thing.

Jack: Yeah, pretty much if you are getting links, you know are creating content that people are talking about, essentially. That is going to be those links back to you. Like you said, I think the worrying thing here is the mention of social media and the fact that popularity is a term that can be misinterpreted in many ways. I'm kind of worried that people are kind of leaning on that a bit too much perhaps. But like you said, if you actually read what Gary and the team have said, it does actually kind of spell things out a bit more.

Mark: Sure. So we noticed, and Gary actually covered this in the Google podcast Search Off the Record, probably about a year, year and a half ago, when the noticeable change in how Google was indexing pages. Essentially this was around the time they had a whole bunch of problems with stuff dropping out of the index and losing part of their index. This is specifically talking about things that come up in search console as crawled, not indexed. Gary did comment on this and was talking about the quality of the content, IE, if we crawl your content and we decide it's not particularly that good, we are just not going to bother indexing it. So I think there is an element to actually how good the content is within the overall site quality as well. In terms of actually getting crawled, we know that things like no follow links are absolutely used in discovery. So we did our own tiny tests of that, of making orphan pages and only linking to them once through a no follow link. Sure enough they will get crawled and they will get indexed. I've done some experiments on some of our new niche sites that we've launched where the only links I've built have just been some comments on some other relevant blogs where I've got a little no follow backlink from the comments. That was getting the pages crawled and indexed as well.

So to pull apart what Gary said about the social media popularity, this is something that we do recommend, anyway, clients do for SEO, which is if you've put a lot of time and effort into making some content, you want people to see it. So it's sometimes actually worth just paying for some social media promotion to get those initial eyeballs. If you are getting shared on social media, it's very likely you are creating a link footprint, IE, a popularity footprint. Even if those links do not contribute to improved ranking, it is very likely that they are a signal that the page should probably at least be indexed, IE, oh look, there's new links consistently popping up for this. I keep discovering it, it keeps being added to our kind of crawl queue, we should probably index it.

Then the end tail of Gary's comment about social media popularity is it boosts indexing speed, which is I think what I just covered there. Then he said it would likely help in general with visibility. I think that's true in terms of a second order effect. So if you have lots of people seeing your content and your content is really, really good, they are more likely anyway to link to it naturally, it's more likely to get shared.

Jack: Yeah, that makes sense.

Mark: So that's what worries me about this statement, right? Which is, I think it's all true what Google said, they haven't told any lies because that's a reaction sometimes you get from SEOs where when Google makes a statement like this that is inherently complex because they're trying to ... It's a couple of paragraphs trying to describe this hugely complicated intertwined ranking system. If it doesn't relate to people's direct experience they just say, "Well, they're lying to us, they want us to do this." I don't think they're lying at all. I think everything they said is true. I just think in every part of each of those sentences there is important nuance between crawling, and indexing, and ranking, and direct things that affect ranking, and things that are very likely to help you improve. So like any other usual Google statement, basically. But yeah, my worry I share with you is that we will see kind of an upsurge of a very carefully snippeted, Google says social media good for SEOs.

Jack: Exactly, yes. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Mark: Pay for me to retweet your things for extra rankings.

Jack: Oh no. Yeah, I think you're totally right, Mark. As we always say, there's such a difference between crawling and indexing, and so many people kind of take that for granted and just the fact that Index Now is called Index Now, we've talked about this previously on the podcast like-

Mark: Crawl Now.

Jack: It's Crawl Now, not Index Now. You do not get instantly indexed. It's, "Hey Google, I have changed a thing, please come and crawl me," not index me straight away. That's not an option. That's not a thing. I find it fascinating that, yeah, this is kind of a direction we're going in. Like you said, I'm worried we're going to see talks at certain events and things going to be like, "Twitter can help you rank and stuff." It's like yeah, that's worrying. I'm very, very worried.

Google no longer recommends canonicals for syndicated content

Jack: We're going to move on to our second topic now and talk all about canonical and syndicated content. For those of you who don't know, syndicated content, I was thinking about this, because I'm thinking of it of course in a TV/movie kind of way because that's how my brain works. This is an article from Search Engine Land from the one and only Barry Schwartz. Thank you, as always, Barry, for the work you do. It was talking about how syndicated content, which is again, kind of like the TV shows, if you think about Friends or some of those big US shows, Cheers, all the kind of old sitcoms in the US and that kind of thing. They get syndicated across many different platforms, many different channels. So you might be able to watch friends on Netflix, but also watch it on channel four in the UK, and also whatever channel it's on in the US, and another channel in the US, and another streaming platform across the board pretty much. So it's that kind of sharing same content across multiple channels.

Think about that in terms of articles on the internet and that's kind of the process my brain did when thinking about syndication. Because when I heard the word syndication I was like, yeah, I've heard of syndicated TV shows before. But syndicated content is where big publishers, and the example I often see when looking at some of our clients back links or when we are doing sort of outreach and stuff like that, Yahoo are pretty infamous for this. They have a lot of sister sites, they have a lot of child sites and things like that where they will just push out syndicated content that's the exact same article across various different domains, and subdomains, and all that kind of stuff.

Previously Google had said to avoid canonical ... Sorry, avoid cannibalization, use canonicals. Now they're kind of steering away from that and heading more towards get this content blocked entirely if you want your original content to rank. So I think that's an interesting conversation to have because how do you go about blocking that? How do you ask your partner sites to not syndicate that? All that kind of stuff. But it's interesting that Google have kind of readjusted and said like canonicals are not enough. By the way, apparently they were never properly enough because it was never consistent. There's some examples in the article Barry's posted there, like I said, link in the show description or in the show notes if you listen to this on a podcast, that there are examples of syndicate content outranking the original content and basically getting the credit for it when really the original author should be getting the credit. It does kind of come down to Google trying to avoid that misinformation kind of thing, trying to give credit to original articles, and original authors, and all that kind of stuff. But I don't really see how actionable this is, if that makes sense, for a lot of people. Like we said, I've seen it through outreach from some of our clients getting featured in a financial site that Yahoo owned, and then it's pushed up to a Yahoo subdomain, or a Yahoo main page, or whatever it is. How do they go about doing that and what are the benefits and what are the disadvantages to that? What are your thoughts on this, Mark?

Mark: Quite a lot. So we know that canonical tag has always been a hint and we've done bunches of tests with this where we've taken similar content, intentionally changed it to see how Google would take those canonical hints. We discovered it now and I think it's more sensitive than it used to be, if there is even what I consider some fairly low-key changes, it will sometimes decide to ignore that hint. Now it's interesting because lots of agencies, especially those that do PR and outreach, will report syndicated links to clients. So you land one bit of news in a major kind of website, or newspaper, or whatever and you would expect it to get syndicated five, 10, 20 times., Then hey, we built you 20 links instead of one link. Again, this has always been questionable. Do you report syndicated links? What are their value? Now if Google is incorrectly ... I think there's two options here. Either it incorrectly canonicalises or it's just not canonicalizing those syndicated versions at all.

Jack: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: Because there's so much other content, and if it's a new site, ads probably crammed around the article that it just considers the pages different enough to index both.

Jack: Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Which so many sites will have different layouts and different approaches to, like you said, ad layouts, menus, all that kind of stuff around the actual text. The actual text on the page is a reasonably small amount of the actual content on the page. Right?

Mark: I think Google could quite easily account for that because they understand which parts of the site are boiler plated throughout. But I think it's particularly difficult with new sites because one common thing you see is loads of related stories all jammed onto the page sometimes in a lazy load type thing. So actually it's not kind of template content that's the same throughout the site. So if those pages are not canonicalised, it would actually mean that Google is counting as well all of the links that are earned within the syndicated pieces to whoever's getting linked to.

So my point here is if people start no indexing, and that's a big if, syndicated content, might this reduce the efficacy of digital PR in that you may have got, say, just 20% of your syndicated links were kind of being counted before, and then suddenly they're all no indexed. We know if pages are no indexed, all the links on them will eventually be treated as no follow. So they will not pass any nice search signals. So that was my thought as well. If we get people to do this, how will it impact digital PR in terms of value and effectiveness? Yeah, there's, like you say, the other kind of side of the coin of it seems the Google has given up trying to solve that cross-site canonical conundrum. I think it's because, as well, so many people misuse the canonical tag by accident or use it incorrectly. It's so common when we take over client sites picking up mistakes in how canonical tags are deployed that Google has to take it as a fairly light hint.

Jack: Yeah, and the exact wording from Google here is that the canonical link element is not recommended for those who wish to avoid duplication by syndication partners because the pages are often very different. Exactly how we were just saying that. The most effective solution is for partners to block indexing of your content. For more see the avoid article duplication in Google News. That's again a link to the documentation. Like I said, links to this will be in the show notes if you listen to the podcast, which it also has advice about blocking syndicated content from Google search. I guess, yeah ... Well, I know we got a question about this from the chat. Should we move on to that? Because I think that is the next natural step, right?

Mark: Yeah. So thank you, Azeem, for this question, which is very poignant, why would a site with syndicated content block it from being indexed? What's in it for them? Also, will these canonicals ever work correctly? I think that's a really good question. What is in it for them? Because if we are working with clients and we want them to do a thing, generally we have to pitch what the value of them doing that is. So what is the value of telling you to no index your-

Jack: Right? Yeah. Why go through the effort of taking that onto an extra site, and going through that process, and then just no indexing it or whatever process you're trying to do to block it? I can't imagine there's any benefit for the syndication partners at that point, right? Are they even bothering to get that content then? Does that crumble those structures within those companies? Like Yahoo is partnered with a bunch of other sites and then, well, if we can't get any traffic through that article, then why would we want that article in the first place?

So that's potentially a hit on the business model. But as Azeem was saying, canonicals are not working. People have tried that and as we know, as you said, Mark, canonicals are a hint, not a directive. So it's kind of like, yeah, great, cool. But there's no real benefit to any of this apart from if you want to really, I guess, lift up the original content and support that, and be like, hey, don't worry, original content, we've got your back, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean it's weird.

Mark: So I think there's potentially a thing here in terms of if you are a site that syndicates content, how much content you do syndicate versus how much you're putting out that's yours? Because there might be some argument you could make in terms of how well your own content might rank if less of your overall site was duplicate stuff from elsewhere.

There would perhaps still be a benefit to having that content on your site because a lot of the trappings of a new site is you get pulled in by a headline, you read that article and then the idea is you're attracted to read other stuff on the site, spend longer on there, because most of them, unless they're subscription based, are ad revenue. So they need page views, they want you to be clicking around. So there's still, outside of SEO, some value to having that content on there. Certainly if it's a group, if it's a company group, there's a strong argument for, like you said, you want all those signals to be in one place from where it originates from.

Jack: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: But in terms of if they've bought other papers and they're trying to get the most out of that content, it's really, I think, before we see that happen on a large scale, I think we'll need to see case studies of how it's benefiting the companies that did that. So if a company said, yeah, we no indexed all of our partners that syndicate us, because now we're being attributed 100% of the time correctly as the authors of this, our organic traffic's gone up 30% and there's been negligible, say, impact on on the syndication site. That's the only way I can see that happening. Otherwise, people are going to kind of be like, not my problem Google, that's your problem to fix. Right?

Jack: That's pretty much where I think that kind of lands and honestly don't know how many people would particularly be interested in doing that. But like you said, if there is a real kind of push towards supporting that original content on one single page, on one single site, and really, like you said, maybe it's a conglomerate or a particular group of different subdomains, and all this kind of stuff, lifting that up and really boosting it could possibly help the original company. If they're all working together and not just paid partners and stuff like that, it could work in that way for sure.

Well, that about wraps us up. Thank you so much for joining us. Apologies for the technical difficulties. We did manage to fix it all. So we are back, we'll be back, of course, next month with another episode of SISTRIX With Candour. That'll be the beginning of June 2023. I'll be once again joined by Mr. Mark Williams Cook. I'll be back again next week on the Search with Candour podcast. So if you want to listen to us in audio format, this will be next week's episode of the podcast if you didn't catch us live on YouTube, and of course it'll be available on demand on SISTRIX's YouTube channel as well. If you want to get it there, you leave comments in there.

Unfortunately, we will not be leaving the chat open afterwards. The SISTRIX team have got to rush off to another meeting and I know there's delays and train issues in Germany, and things like that. But we will be available in the comments if you do want to leave more chats, and of course you can reach out to us on social media and things like that. We're always available for questions, and comments, and all that kind of stuff.

Mark: And bants.

Jack: Mostly bants. Exactly.

Well, thank you so much for joining us if you did join us live on YouTube. Hopefully you enjoyed listening, enjoyed watching, and we'll be back next month. Until then, thank you so much and we'll see you then. Bye-bye.