Episode 108: Local SEO with Emily Brady

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What's in this episode?

In this episode, you will hear Mark Williams-Cook joined by Emily Brady talking all about local SEO in 2021, covering:

  • Ranking factors in map packs

  • Problems with spam in local SEO

  • How to make a great local SEO landing page

  • Schema and local SEO

  • How to benchmark your local SEO

Show notes

Redressal form for GMB


MC: Welcome to episode 108 of the Search with Candour podcast recorded on Friday, the 23rd of April, 2021. As usual, my name is Mark Williams-Cook, still. And we're going to be talking today with Emily Brady, who is senior manager of Local SEO Solutions at Milestone. And we are going to be talking about, funnily enough, Local SEO. We have a really interesting interview. We talk about what it takes to get ranked in Google Map Packs. We talk about problems with spam, or crap on the map, as people refer to it on Twitter. We talk about the differences in ranking between normal organic results, and in those map packs, and how to make the best possible landing pages.

Before we get to that interview, I want to tell you that this episode is very kindly sponsored by Site Bulb. Site Bulb, if you haven't heard of it, its' a desktop-based Windows or Mac, whichever you have, SEO auditing tool. We've used it for years at the agency. It's absolutely fundamental to what we do. I was actually recording a training course today, or more of our training course on SEO today. And actually we use Site Bulb in that as well. So, today I was taking people through how to audit their HTTPS set up, finding non-secure pages, finding mixed secure, non-secure pages and how Site Bulb makes that really easy.

And just from this podcast, actually, I got a message a few days ago from a user saying, "Hey, Mark, just wanted to let you know, after listening to Search with Candour, we used the trial version of Site Bulb..." And it says their company name, "Bought the pro version. We're getting so much value for it." So, really pleased we can introduce more people to Site Bulb. It's absolutely brilliant. will get you an extended 60 day trial. No credit card or anything required. So, no excuse, download it, give it a go and see how you like it.

And today we are joined by Emily Brady, who is senior manager of Local SEO Solutions. Emily, thank you so much for joining us on Search with Candour.

EB: Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here today.

MC: For those that don't know you before we get going. So, we're going to be talking obviously about Local SEO today, which is a specialist area of yours. Do you just want to give a quick introduction to how you got into SEO, and a little bit about the role that you currently do?

EB: Yeah, definitely. So, I have been doing SEO in some capacity for about nine years now. And I initially started at a company called Scorpion. I got into SEO doing content writing, actually. And then, over the years that evolved into on-site. And then, everything from there. But largely that entire time I was working with local businesses. So, anything from SMBs up to franchises, et cetera. So, now Local SEO is my niche. That's what I'm really focusing on for both anything from a single location, all the way up to really large, multi location, national brands and whatnot. So, that's the abbreviated version of my journey. I'm currently at a company called Milestone, which offers both software and services in SEO, digital marketing. And I get to help head up the local side of that, which is really exciting. So, I'm working on both the product side, which is so fun, but then also getting to onboard and work with some of our strategic clients as well.

MC: Brilliant. That's a really well done succinct intro. You warned me you might be a bit of a rambler, but that was really good. So, we're going to talk about Local SEO. And I just wanted to introduce the subject. Because, you've said you've been doing SEO, yourself, pretty much a decade now. And one of the things I've noticed over that time is this change in search engine results as we've marched towards, what we call these universal search results, where in some cases... And it certainly makes SEOs argue, we're getting instant answers in search results, we're getting knowledge graph stuff, featured snippets. And a lot of the time we're getting top news stories, and local came along really, really early in this journey. And I've just seen it grow, and grow, and grow. So, originally we were triggering these local results for when people were searching for something near me, or when they were using geographical terms.

And what I've personally noticed is that now Google is inferring when it thinks there's probably local intent, even if it's not specified. So, a great example of that for me, is in the UK, at least, even if I just type SEO agency, the first thing I get is a Map Pack come out, because Google's like, "Well, people seem to want people near them. So, I'm going to show this." Is that something that you've observed in terms of Local SEO in that it is becoming more important and widening its reach within the remit of SEO?

EB: Yeah, definitely. I think that what we're seeing, and we'll continue to see. Nine years is a long time in Google years. But I think what we're seeing is Google is becoming more intuitive about understanding the way people search, and what search intent is. So, having a local pack show up that tells you, "Okay, Google's assuming that this is a local search. Someone needs a local business to help them." And that becomes even more obvious with certain types of businesses like a plumbing company, or any landscaping, things like that. But even in the past year, the concept of Local SEO during COVID has changed. Because, everything is based on proximity at this point. In the past I used to drive to work, and then I'd be hitting up coffee shops on the other side of town. But now my proximity bubble is so much smaller.

So, Local SEO has become even more important, I would say in the last year. Because, businesses that approximate to their searchers house is really where it's at. And obviously that's going to change as things start reopening and whatnot. But I think local will be important as long as people need local services and local businesses, whether they're large enterprise locations or SMBs are a really important part of the economy, and part of our communities and whatnot. So, I think that Google's emphasis on evolving those search result pages is smart, because that's largely what people are looking for online. I think it's something like close to half of searches on Google have some local intent generally speaking.

So, yeah. Local is important and I would expect to see it changing more in the future. And even, in the past year, again, with COVID, it was really obvious how Google started introducing things like health and safety attributes on GMB, and all of that good stuff to make it easier for consumers to get what they need online before they visit a location. Because the chances of someone showing up to a store that's actually closed is a lot higher during COVID and all of that kind of stuff, which shows you that at the end of the day, users are the ones driving search. Because, our lives changed and then that forced Google to adapt. So, I think that just really emphasizes the importance of the local as an industry. And then, also how at the end of the day, local is for customers above everything else. And we even saw Google having to change and accommodate customers because customers' lives changed in the past year. So, yeah, a long answer for a short question, but yeah, I would say yes, I agree with you.

MC: Yeah. I was quite impressed. We covered in the podcast, some of those changes Google rolled out to Google My Business. There's some we've applied for at our agency. We can list if on-site services are available, or if it's remote only. I know they changed some things for restaurants seeing if they offer delivery. Because that was something, as you said, consumers really started looking for something like, "Okay, this is the usual place I would go to eat. Now I want to find out, because of COVID, can they deliver?" So, it was interesting seeing how quickly Google could pace with those changes. So, with our SEO hats on then, and talking about Local SEO, I think the first thing that comes to people's minds when we talk about Local SEO, is just managing their listing in Google My Business. What else is there to Local SEO that people should be thinking about?

EB: Yeah, this is one of my favourite questions and favourite topics. But obviously GMB is a huge part of the local. That's a huge driver of traffic, and not just traffic to your website, but traffic to your business in some capacity. But also at the end of the day, when you think about it, Local SEO tends to get categorised as this subset of this larger SEO umbrella. But then, when you compare that to other areas of digital, no one says local digital marketing. So, if you're doing SEO for a local business, it doesn't matter what activity or strategy you're implementing, that's Local SEO if you're trying to reach local customers. So, really anything that you're doing. So, yeah. Listings are going to be part of that Google My Business, your listings management, yes.

But we tend to think of those as Local SEO, just because they are unique to Local SEO. But in reality, everything else is going to impact that as well. Like your landing pages, what type of content you have on your website, what are you giving customers there on your actual domain, your website performance, your schema markup, all of that good stuff. All of that is just as much Local SEO as listings management is, because the goal is the same. You're trying to reach those local customers. So, again, it's going to be anything that you're doing that's looking to achieve that larger objective of getting a local business, or a location for a large local enterprise business with more customers.

MC: I think that differentiation between the... Well we will simplify and say two sets of results. And by two sets of results, I mean Map Packs, and GMB listings, and the 10 blue links, if you like, the organic results that we have been used to. I've had a lot of questions previously around the differences in how we can rank in those two different sets of results? So, the 10 blue links thing has been with us for a long time. And there's lots of people who've talked about page rank, and we know about on-site content, and all this kind of stuff. And, to me, and I think, well, to many people, we can see that how Google is ranking people in those listing results, is slightly different. Because, we see different companies obviously appearing in there. So, do you have any insight into what factors Google is using with those local search listings? And how important they might be compared to each other? Compared to how we're looking to classic SEO, if you like?

EB: Yeah. Classic SEO. I like that. Yeah. This is one of those things that it's really frustrating when you have a business and you're like, "We got them ranking, and the quote unquote, 'organic classic blue links' they're there. The content is great. We've got some good solid backlinks that we earned, all this good stuff." And then, they never show up in the Map Pack. But I think at an industry level, the general understanding is that there are actually a pretty limited handful of items that influence your rankings in the local pack. And that's largely going to be things like your business name, the primary category, maybe your secondary categories too. But the primary one, primarily. And proximity. And then, there's a fourth one that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. Business name, category, proximity and reviews is going to be another one.

But when you think about it, really, the only thing that you can absolutely control is going to be your primary category. So, it's a bit of a catch-22 there, because so much of it is not things that you can actively go in and optimise. Unless, you're willing to actually change your business name to something that has a keyword in it, which isn't plausible for everyone. And if everyone does that, there's still only three spots. So, that is challenging that way. But when you think about it, local has always been entity-based. That way Google is not just looking at these text-based items like keywords on a page to rank in the Maps Pack. So, it's more complicated that way. But then, on the actual execution side you're somewhat limited as far as those really big ticket things that you can change to immediately see an increase.

So, I would say the smart thing to do there is, one, make sure what you can control is updated, obviously. And then, just really fill out everything, leverage every possible opportunity for optimisation on your profile. Even if it's not a direct ranking factor. Just to take up as much space in the knowledge panel as possible, et cetera. But then, leverage your on-site too. If you're linking to a really strong landing page, that's probably going to help you. Stuff like that. So, just make sure you're hitting it from all angles and cross your fingers and say, "Hey, I hope Google rewards the fact that my business is the best one." But, yeah, local's tricky that way because it's very competitive. It's really volatile. And those top quote "ranking factors" aren't things that we can always control. So, it's a matter of casting a broader net, and just doing all of those little things on the side that may or may not make an impact. But over time aggregate and cumulatively hopefully will start to implement some kind of change.

MC: One thing I had used to hear people talking about quite a lot in terms of Local SEO and listing rankings, was this NAP citation. So, name, address, phone number, and making sure that your business name, address and phone number is the same. And it's in multiple places across the web, because Google is using that to bonafide who you are. Is that still a thing you think contributes? Or was it something that ever did? Or was that a bit of a red herring there?

EB: Yeah. I don't think it was a red herring so much, but you know what? It would be really exciting if it was. That would be some good SEO news. But I do think it is now to a certain extent, because there's so many other opportunities out there. In the past... When I say local has always been entity-based, that's because Google is gathering information from across the internet about your business, and then drawing assumptions from it about what your business is, and for what search results you might be relevant. So, in the past, because... Going back to 2012, search was significantly more text-based at that time, it was Google's crawling text on websites. That's what it understood the best. And so, the text it was gathering about your website from other websites is going to be your URL, your name, your address, and your phone number. So, really that NAP consistency. Yeah. That was important. Because that's the biggest piece of information you could give to search engines. But now there's so much more that you can provide to actually present your business as an entity. All of those attributes on GMB, all of the schema markup, you can be adding on your landing pages, all that good stuff. Google is a lot more intuitive about understanding, "Okay. How do all of these pieces fit together to create the larger whole of this local business?"

Even things as simple as attributes like, "Is this business women owned? Or do they have indoor dining right now?" All of those are pieces of this larger entity, and it's data that you can feed directly to Google. So, leveraging that, I think, is really important. And I would say make sure that your name, address, and phone number is accurate, but at the end of the day, Google doesn't need 80 plus mentions of that to understand where you are located. You can feed them that information directly in Google My Business and in your website markup and all of that good stuff.

So, sure. If people are using those websites, it's important to have the NAP updated there because, if not, there'll be calling the wrong phone number. But it's not as important I would say to get visibility, because Google has become more intuitive about understanding your business, and they don't need help from these other listings as much to do that.

MC: That makes perfect sense. That makes really good sense. We spoke, several episodes ago now, to Jason Barnard and went into some depth about schema and entities. And I always find it really exciting talking about that aspect of Google, and how they're building this graph, and they're understanding everything. But then I'm very, very quickly grounded. So, there is a hashtag I've seen on Twitter quite a few times, which is #CrapOnTheMap. And this is referring to Google My Business results to Map Pack listings where there's obviously a spam issue there.

You mentioned before about the name of the business obviously being a ranking factor. And I think this is a similar line to how exact match domains used to work really well, and still work quite well in terms of Google's got to make that decision from a search intent point of view, as to, "Is this a navigational search. Is this person just being lazy and typing the name of the thing they want to find?" So, this means that when people decide to put keywords in their business name on their listing, Google just tends to rank them. And I see loads of examples. It seems when it's actually in the states, from what I've seen, than in the UK. Is this a problem at the moment for Local SEO? And does Google action it? Because, I seem to see a lot of people complaining about this kind of behavior.

EB: Yeah. It definitely is a problem. It's a problem, unless your actual business name is an exact match keyword, in which case then it's great. But it's definitely a problem because there really isn't any proactive effort taken on Google's side to get rid of those. And I think there are two types of spam that we're talking about. The first one is, "Okay, maybe this business hired an SEO strategist, or company, that is willing to create spam lead gen listings for them. And they're going to a legit business. They're just getting those leads by cheating the algorithm." So, that's one issue, which is frustrating for those of us who are trying to do it by the book. But then, the other problem is you can also have fake businesses who are actually then cheating people out of their money because of it.

If it's a quote, "lead gen listing", and then someone shows up for a service, bills them for it, and then never actually completes it. That's another problem that happens too. So, both of those, one of them obviously much worse than the other one, because that's actually scamming people. The other one is just cheating the algorithm to get more leads to a real business. But regardless, the thing is Google doesn't actively monitor this. But they do allow SEOs to take action and we can suggest edits, we can report spam, things like that. So, I always think about it like... This is a silly analogy, but reporting spam on the Map Pack is like the Dr. Pimple Popper of SEO. Because, it's so satisfying to go in there and fix this stuff. Because you can actually fix it. It's like, "Oh, yeah, we got that guy taken down who was bumping my client down a couple of spots."

And so, you can take action like that. There are people who devote a lot of time and effort to this, because it really does make a difference. And Google isn't taking enough action. They're relying on people in the search industry, or quote "users," but users aren't going to spend all day editing the Maps. It's largely SEOs I would assume. But Google relies on us to actually report those on an ad hoc basis. So, that's not really taking action, but it's unfortunate, and it's very frustrating when you get rid of one and then five more pop back up, and it's still like, "My client should be performing better because of this."

But at the end of the day you can report stuff, you can get spam taken down. And Google is not going to proactively do that for you. So, if you notice that being a problem in your area with your clients, I would say carve out some time to go in there and find those listings, do your research, look it up and see do they have a business license that's legit? Is it up-to-date? Is this fake? Call the phone number and see who picks up, stuff like that. Just try to do a little detective work and then get it taken down if it's not legit, because Google's not going to do that for you.

MC: I'll put a link for our listeners in the show notes, you can get our show notes at There is a Google My Business redressal form, they call it. If you do find people doing something particularly naughty, like Emily said, if they've set up fake listings that are trying to con people out of money, you can report those through that form. And there is the ability to suggest edits. So, if you had a competitor say that added in a load of keywords on their business name, you can suggest an edit basically that they just changed that to their business name. Now, for those listening, does that mean the owner has to approve that change? Or will that just go through? Or is it account-based? What can happen in that instance?

EB: So, interestingly, Google gives way too much power to people just suggesting edits in a way that is advantageous in this type of situation. So, if they're trying to cheat the system, obviously they wouldn't approve that effort. So, if Google deems it to be, "Yeah, this should be updated to not be the keyword." Then they're going to accept that edit at their discretion, essentially. The same thing goes for legit businesses too, which is another problem. If I, as a customer, go in and mark a business as closed, or something like that, or temporarily closed, or open, when it's actually temporarily closed, Google tends to just accept those. And then, later the business can go in and fix it. But they're pretty trusting when it comes to crowdsourcing data like that. Not always, but definitely when it comes to updating those really spammy business names and whatnot, they tend to either approve or reject your request. And it's not up to the actual listing owner at that point.

MC: That might be interesting for people listening. Because, I think quite a few business owners don't know that. And one of the questions that has come up a few times, we've done a few live SEO, Q and A's, and something that regularly comes up is around companies with multiple locations, but only one website, if you like. And they have one contact page. And when we speak to them about Local SEO, they're saying, "Well, how do I do that? Should I have multiple entries?" So, they've got multiple physical presences, but just one site. Should they be setting up a page for each physical presence on their site? What's the best practice for people in that situation?

EB: So, I think it will depend somewhat on how many locations you have, and also how effective your current strategy is. So, if I have two locations in one larger metropolitan area, maybe I don't need individual location pages. If I'm doing pretty well, if I'm getting enough leads, if I'm maybe ranking for those big ticket keywords that I want. But just as a baseline, when it comes to, "I have one website and I have multiple locations." Your options are really going to be set up unique... If each location provides unique value to customers, then you should have a unique page to serve that value to them. Because, then that'll get picked up by Google, and you then stand to rank for more terms, you stand to get clicks for more keywords, and things like that. So, really it's a question of subfolders or subdomains, but really just setting up your location pages.

Most of the time, clients tend to already have something in place. So, you're probably working with something at this point. There's going to be some content there, very rarely is it totally from scratch. But depending on what path you choose, really the goal is make sure that each location is providing unique value to its customers. Otherwise, there is no point in having unique location pages. So, let's say... I see a lot of businesses not leveraging this as much as they could. But if I'm a bank or something like that, and I have five locations in one city, I can have unique information there. Because, maybe there's a handful of ATMs at this one, but this one has a drive through ATM. And then, maybe I can have a staff bio about who's the general manager here? Who's the person who's in charge of making sure that our customers feel seen and heard if they have a bad experience? All of that stuff can go on those unique location pages and provide value that I can almost guarantee your competitors aren't providing. Because it takes a lot of effort to generate that type of content.

So, yeah. Setting up those location pages and just giving as much information as possible. All those attributes that you're adding on GMB with the click of a button, add those to your website too. Because, the more info and the more value you provide to potential customers, the fewer excuses they have to go to a competitor. So, just making sure that each location page has some unique value on it, and isn't largely boilerplate content is going to be the key to actually seeing results that way.

I think a lot of the time, especially when you start getting really large enterprise sites, it can be hard to do that at scale. Because, you can't necessarily automate it. I wish I had some hot tips and tricks on how to automate this process. But at the end of the day, if there's a different staff member you're highlighting at each location to create that unique value, you're just going to have put in the work to do it. And maybe it's a gradual process, but it also definitely pays off because that's not something that a lot of businesses do.

So, every industry is going to be different too. If I'm a bakery, or retail, or something like that, I can have an inventory feed, or specials that might be unique to each location. So, any truly unique value and differentiating factors that you can put on that page that is going to provide value to your customers, add that to your location pages. That's what's going to make them the most successful.

MC: That's really, really good advice. So, I've seen many GMB listings that have led to a very spartan contact page form with pretty much no other information on it. So, if you're getting those multiple locations, as Emily said, work on those landing pages. Another question about that, we've mentioned it a couple of times, or you've mentioned a couple of times, we haven't explored it yet. You've mentioned schema, what schema should people be considering, specifically around local?

EB: Yeah. So, this actually ties back to... Yeah, I have mentioned schema a couple of times. I do love talking about schema. But it also ties back to the original concept of any SEO you're doing is Local SEO if it's for local customers. So, yes, there is a local business schema and subsets of that, that you can mark up on your website. And you absolutely should if you are a local business. But also markup everything else that is an opportunity. So, like those bios that I talked about, you can add person schema, you can add that kind of information. You can mark up your promotional offers, things like that. Add structured data to everything on the page that is a structured data opportunity. And then, if you find yourself not having any opportunities? Okay, then maybe you need to generate some content, create content to give yourself that opportunity.

So, really schema... Audit your content, see what you can mark up, compare that against what's available. And if you come up a little bit short, then use that as a content gap analysis and start building out your pages more so that now you have more opportunities. Another really good one that I think is probably, it's not under utilised, but might be underutilised on location pages, or local landing pages pretty often is FAQ schema. I love FAQ schema. It's great. As a user, I love FAQ schema. Because, then I can get answers right there in the search result pages from that rich result. It requires you to have good, substantial content on the page as well. So, that's another great one. And we see that a lot on websites, but it can be unique to that location. You can use that schema that is not specific to local to actually add value to your Local SEO strategy.

So, really anything. Just audit what you got. See, "Okay, what structure data opportunities exist." And then, also use that as a content gap analysis to build more content, and start adding more schema. The possibilities are really only limited by the available schema types. And I think there's thousands, there are just a lot out there. So, yeah. It takes a little bit of work to dive in and figure out what's available and that is going to be unique to a lot of different industries, but definitely something that I think should be leveraged on those location pages.

MC: Like you, I'm a big fan of schema. And the advice that we tend to give to clients, strategically, is even when Google was saying, "Well, we're not doing so much with this schema at the moment." So, obviously there's certain types of schema you mentioned, like the FAQ stuff that gets you rich results. I think this is going to be the building blocks for a lot of what happens next. Especially, when we move further away from people having to search for stuff, and then themselves have to pick out what is the best page that might have the answer to what they're looking for. To when Google has got, and other search engines hopefully, have this better understanding of what entities are, how they're related, and they can just answer the question. We can get closer to just shouting at our TVs and stuff to get the answers that we want about businesses. And I think if you've already got that schema in place that, that's a good long-term strategy. So, you're not just doing the bare minimum for what is required for today. So, I think it's all good advice you've given there.

My last question for you, before we wrap up because we're coming up to about half an hour now, is just actually around benchmarking. How should people go about benchmarking their Local SEO presence? And what's changing them? What's happening with competitors?

EB: Yeah. Okay. This is a good question, but kind of a bad question for 2020 and 2021. Because, all of our year over year data is completely ruined. With the exception of... Well, no. I don't think there are really any exceptions. The only industry I saw that was not hugely impacted, and only impacted immediately at first, was home services. Because, stuff breaks around your house, whether or not you're driving to the office. Not including COVID into that equation, I think there are a couple of things to take into consideration here. But in an ideal situation, what you want to do is understand what your goals are. So, is your client wanting to rank? Are they just wanting more revenue? What matters to them? And then, map those goals to specific KPIs, and start gathering that information.

So, the other caveat here is most people, most businesses are already going to have an idea of what they think those KPIs should be. So, sometimes it's like, "I only care about ranking in the Maps Pack. That is the only thing that matters to me." Well, in that's tuition, okay, just have a conversation, maybe realign and show them like, "Hey, we can get value from some other metrics too. Let's benchmark those as well, just to see down the road how that impacts your growth." The other thing to take into consideration too, is going to be what industry are you in? As far as what metrics you really want to drop a pin in and see how they move. So, I'm thinking specifically of, let's take an attorney for example. An attorney you have the opportunity to rank in the maps, and you also have the opportunity to rank in organic. And, generally speaking, there are some listings showing up in the 10 blue links, which you should be in those too. But there are still going to be four to six opportunities to also rank on page one.

But in other industries, like if you look at hospitality, for example, it can be really challenging to push down those online travel agencies, like Expedia and, and whatnot. It's going to be a lot more challenging to be ranking in those 10 blue links. So, maybe start your benchmarking with a little bit more GMB insights. Look at your impressions and visibility that way, look at your direct bookings, things like that, instead. So, take industry factors into consideration, understand what is reasonable. And then, start from there. Work with the client, understand like, "Hey, what are your goals?" And then, map that to what you see to be the most important metrics and what is reasonable to actually see growth the fastest and in the long run as well.

MC: Perfect. Emily, thank you so much for your time. Where can people find you online if they want to connect with you?

EB: I am on Twitter, @Plotboilers. So, P-L-O-T boilers.

MC: I won't ask where that name came from.

EB: I will tell you where the name came from. Because, you're the second person to ask. For a long time no one asked. And I was like, "I guess it just makes sense to people, so it'll be fine." But, no. So, that is a nod to the fact that I like books. So, a potboiler is a book that an author writes, generally, for the sake of generating income. Because they know it's going to sell, based just on their recognition or fame. So, that's a potboiler, to keep the pot boiling. So, I changed it to plot boilers, because a couple years ago... Well, now more like eight to 10 years ago. Whenever I first logged on to Twitter. I was like, "Oh, plot boilers. That's a fun pun."

And I had recently started appreciating books just as a genre fiction, opposed to only going after the classics. Because, I tended to lean on classic fiction more than anything else. So, it's a nod to the fact that I like books. And I will read pretty much anything, whether it be a potboiler genre fiction. If it's fun, it's good reading. So, yeah. A long explanation for a very short Twitter handle, but that's where it comes from.

MC: I loved it. That was really interesting. And I had no idea what a potboiler was, and now I know. So, thank you for that. We're going to be back in one week's time, which will be Monday, the 3rd of May. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please subscribe, share it with a friend, all of that lovely stuff. And apart from that, I hope you all have a lovely week.

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